An Interview with Amalia Kostanyan
Chairwoman, Center for Regional Development / Transparency International Armenia
OK: Although it's perhaps too much of a generalization, one thing that is often said is that while many people criticize corruption in Armenia , they would probably do the same if they had the opportunity. Corruption is also a cultural phenomenon. Do you think that this mentality can change?
AK: Yes, because when we are born we have both positive and negative aspects in our characters. For example, why can local Armenians move to Europe or the US and become law-abiding and obedient citizens?
OK: Many Diasporan Armenians criticize the behavior of Armenians from the Republic when they move to places like Los Angeles .
AK: This is not always the case and I can turn this around and ask why is it that some Diasporans and foreigners come to Armenia and adjust very easily to this very corrupt system. The Diaspora also gives bribes to register their businesses, exploit their connections and provide kickbacks to government officials for protection. Why?
OK: I suppose that in the West there's an understanding that the law functions and people will be prosecuted if they're found out but this doesn't really happen here, does it?
AK: No, it doesn't and perhaps this is the biggest part of the problem. Why should people resist corruption? There is of course supply and demand but why should they even bother if there is no punishment or if they can see that others make lots of money through criminal and corrupt ways? We need restrictions and limitations, morally and legally, so that we all behave normally but this is not really a priority for the anti-corruption strategy which is more focused on prevention through legislative changes.
Of course, we can't just criticize the government for this but they could explain to the people that there is pressure from outside to reform and that while it is impossible to significantly reduce corruption in 5, 10 years or even 25 years, let's make a social contract with each other. They could say that while they need time, resources, patience and commitment, if the public gives them their trust, they will agree to sacrifice some of their wealth and power.
OK: There are two points here. The first is that there is supposed to be a social contract formed as a result of elections and secondly, even in the declarations of income that government officials and parliamentary deputies now have to make, they can't even be honest about that.
AK: This question is also about the mentality of Armenians who are able to sacrifice themselves for their children and during times of war or in other extreme situations when there is a sense of belonging but on a daily basis, and especially in times of transition, instead adjust to prevailing conditions in order to survive.
OK: In your 2003 National Integrity System Report you point out that there isn't a legal definition of what corruption is. Has anything changed in this respect?
AK: No, but in the anti-corruption strategy, it is defined as abuse of power for private gain. However, there are also recommendations from western experts that we define corruption more concretely. We have a number of provisions in the criminal code about corruption-related crimes but they are not particularly well-defined. I would imagine that the government is currently working on this.
OK: A cynical response to the government's anti-corruption strategy is that it is imposed from outside. Do you believe that there is the genuine political will to fight corruption in Armenia ?
AK: I haven't really seen much sign of any genuine political will except for some actions such as joining GRECO and adopting the anti-corruption strategy which is mainly within the framework of ongoing reforms in the country. The reform process consists of many anti-corruption elements and the anti-corruption strategy is almost a compilation of these elements which is quite clever in a way.
I would imagine that this has all been the result of external pressure because you mentioned Vazgen Sarkisyan's attempt to fight corruption which started in 1999 as a result of meetings with the World Bank and IMF in Washington . However, after the tragic events in the Armenian Parliament the process was stopped and didn't really start again until the beginning of 2001 or actually 2002 when the process of developing the anti-corruption strategy started. Until then, the process was frozen. If there was the genuine political will to fight corruption why didn't it start earlier?
Also, let's try to be objective. If you are in power in this very corrupt system and even if you consider that corruption is very dangerous, with common sense telling you that it will lead to catastrophe, you are also susceptible to the influence of those that helped you come to power and who you are sharing that power with. However, having the political to fight corruption not only implies signing papers or adopting laws but also prosecuting those who are responsible for what's going on, regardless of their position.
This is of course theoretical given the situation in Armenia but we really need something to help us restore our trust in the state which is still only associated with individuals, parties and businesses. Today, Armenians dislike the state but if we are to survive as a nation we need the state machinery to function. We need a social contract and to give up some freedom as individuals in order to receive protection from the state. What bothers me the most about this situation is with regards to the moral cost of corruption. For example, can you get a good job, study at University or start a business without corruption?
Everything can be bought and sold in Armenia and this is a catastrophic situation for any country to find itself in.
OK: When people talk about corruption in this region, everyone refers to Georgia . You'll be visiting Georgia this month. Will you be looking at the situation there?
AK: Yes. I've heard from some foreign visitors that there's now no bribery among the traffic police, customs is controlled more or less and there's been a lot of media coverage reporting that people are being arrested and put in jail. However, I wouldn't comment on this directly because what we've seen from the media is just one layer of the fight against corruption. Instead, I'm very interested in delving deeper to see what is happening at institutional and other levels. However, the most important issue in the case of Georgia is if their anti-corruption initiative can be sustained but let's hope that this development can affect the situation in Armenia .
In that sense, I wish our neighbors luck because if they succeed there is some hope for Armenia although, of course, the situation is quite different. Armenians have become more frustrated and cynical and most of the intelligentsia lives abroad. The people that remain are a combination of those that came to power or opened businesses in probably illegal ways during this transitional period and an older generation which is frustrated and devastated while the youth is brought up in a very cynical atmosphere.
Potentially, the Diaspora that lives here could form a new social stratum but in reality they are isolated from society. It's good that we now have more diversified Armenians among society but I would be happier if they would bring some positive influences with them. When I was studying in the US , for example, Diasporan Armenians would say that they couldn't do business in Armenia because of corruption and because there is no protection for their investments. On the other hand, they avoided open criticism of the authorities and the political system because it's easier for them to be more patient.
As an example, and although I was touched to see the result of the recent telethon to build a road in Karabagh, I have to question why the Diaspora doesn't seem too concerned with how the money they give to Armenia is spent. Why aren't they concerned with transparency and accountability and the same question exists with regards to loans, credits and grant programs. When you are investing money in a corrupt system and when there are so many opportunities for corruption you have to be careful and ensure that all the money goes to where it's intended.
OK: When I speak to many Diasporans about corruption in Armenia , they generally rationalize the situation and even say that there is more corruption in the United States or Europe . However, I can honestly say that while there is corruption in the West, I have never encountered it in my life. In Armenia , however, I come across it on an almost daily basis. Even so, the recent letter by Carolann Najarian [http://www.hetq.am/eng/society/0412-najarian.html ] about her own experience in Armenia seems to have changed attitudes among some Diasporans.
On the other hand, let's talk about the environment. The parks in Yerevan have been destroyed and the trees have been cut down to open cafés that have almost certainly been built with corrupt money. This is a well-documented example of corruption but the Diaspora instead rationalizes the situation and makes excuses. Probably, in this case, they actually like this particular manifestation of corruption regardless of the environmental and health problems it will cause later.
AK: It's impunity, illegality, immorality and also, from an economic viewpoint, I don't think that these cafés are making money. Their owners are investing in construction so that they can sell them for a profit later. Illegal construction is something very obvious for everybody and those with power and wealth don't care about their reputation or being prosecuted because of course, they are protected by the authorities and they can do anything they want.
This is a very dangerous situation and another reason why we need a social contract between the authorities and the people. Why did the population give up part of their freedom to create the state when the situation is now reverting back to something close to chaos? Yes, there is corruption in the United States and yes, in numerical terms, corruption in Armenia is far smaller because we are a tiny country. However, the impact is significantly greater.
OK: December 9 marks the United Nations International Anti-Corruption Day. What will happen in Armenia to mark this event?
AK: The United Nations International Anti-Corruption Day marks the signing of the UN Convention against Corruption in Mexico last year. Armenia is not yet a signatory but it's good that corruption is now considered a problem as significant as AIDS, drugs and hunger because it's a social evil. In Armenia , we will be holding events in the regions where we have anti-corruption centers and we hope that there will be significant media coverage. On the same day, Transparency International will launch its 2004 Global Corruption Barometer.
This interview is a follow-up to interviews with CRD / Transparency International Armenia. A previous interview with Amalia Kostanyan, conducted in February 2004 is also available on this site [click here] along with an interview with Sona Ayvazyan, Environmental Policy Expert/Project Director, Center for Regional Development/Transparency International Armenia is also available [click here].
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